The Hoboken Cafe 

things i've noticed...
-men don't give up seats for pregnant women anymore, nor the elderly
-holding doors is no longer standard practice
-overall unwillingness to pick up women in the romantic way ie--in a classy place...general tendency to do meat market bar thing?
-general lack of effort put into dates....
discuss

I think you have been looking at the wrong men.

-Mike

elmermaid said on 8/15/2001 11:07 PM

>things i've noticed...
>-men don't give up seats for pregnant women anymore, nor the elderly
>-holding doors is no longer standard practice
>-overall unwillingness to pick up women in the romantic way ie--in a classy place...general tendency to do meat market bar thing?
>-general lack of effort put into dates....
>discuss

Elmermaid, I agree. But then again, some men have been beaten down so for holding doors open, or giving up their seats, or trying to NOT pick up a woman in "a classy way." There will come a time when men and women will get tired of the "bar scene" and they will realize there's a bit more to weekends then cruising Hoboken bars in search of that next "perfect person." My current boyfriend and I had a great first date in a bookstore and he won me over when he caught me in the romance novels stacks, tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Wouldn't you rather have the real thing (i.e. romance in real life and not in books)?"

Mike, I also agree with your assertion, but I'd also like to hear it from a guy's perspective. I don't think I could honestly say that I'd ever get picked up in a bar - because I don't drink AND I'm not this Corona-drinking, navel baring, thin waif with her head up her butt and swears by the Rules, Sex and the City, and thinks it's o so hip and cool to be watching Queer as Folk. To borrow a phrase from my adolescence, gag me with a spoon.

I have no advice for you Elmermaid, but to sympathize. I always try to remember that sometimes, even my boyfriend won't live up to my expectations. If you want a guy to hold a door open, bring you flowers, not pick you up in a bar, then you are just going to have to be upfront about it. You're going to have to practice of saying nicely, "Hey, I really like when guys hold a door open for me/pull my chair out/bring me flowers/insert your request here." Not everyone is "raised right" as they say, but life is a continual learning process.

Just my two cents.

Ok, for a point-by-point commentary:
-men don't give up seats for pregnant women anymore, nor the elderly

Yes, this is sad, I've seen it many times. The thing is, women don't give up their seats either. My (ex)girlfriend has been on crutches for about a month and has found that when she gets on the subway it takes an average of 30 seconds before someone offers her a seat. It's invariably a man and only one ever gets up. When getting on the train, men tend to clear a path for her and make it easier, while women push her out of the way and jump in front of her. Often they step on her hobbled foot and don't even apologize.

-holding doors is no longer standard practice

You only have to get stung once or twice by shrill comments about how today's woman can take care of herself, thank you very much, to take doorholding on a case-by-case basis. If I'm with someone, or see someone struggling with packages/pram/crutches, I make the effort. Otherwise, if you can bring home the bacon & fry it up in a pan, you can probably open the door as well.

-overall unwillingness to pick up women in the romantic way ie--in a classy place...general tendency to do meat market bar thing?

Is a classy joint the sort of place women go to get picked up? It all looked good when Cary Grant and Rock Hudson did it in the movies, but the majority of people at those places don't go to meet people-- they go because they're on dates or enjoying their company in the classy setting. They'd be pissed off if someone hit on them there. At a meat market, at least everybody knows why they go.

Keep in mind, Rock Hudson was gay-- when he picked up someone at Chez Pierre, it's because the script told him to. And it also told him the girl'd be charmed...

-general lack of effort put into dates....

Not to mention finding dates. Why are people so hung up on dating in town? Is there a border patrol? My last girlfriend lived in Woodside, Queens, just 40 minutes away. And let me tell you fellas, she's the bee's knees.

Seriously, if you don't like the effort men make, train your man better! It's not like we can't learn. There's all sorts of ways to improve us. For one, try TELLING your boy what you think about the effort they're putting forth. If they like you, try playing a little harder to get-- he'll pick up the pace if he knows what's good for him! And if they don't like you, why are you dating them anyway?

Argh. All of these complaints fall under the "does equality preclude chivalry." The answer is yes: if you want to be an equal, don't expect special treatment. Of course, it's not as romantic, but being a damsel in distress isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Ha! I have not heard of anyone being "Gagged with a spoon"
forever...

Alot of it is perspective..I honestly think you're to young to be so jaded! OK here's my point by point opinion:

1. I actually don't want men to hold the door for me but they always seem to LOL.

2. The tendancy not to give up a seat thing for a pregnant or older women is a valid point but men and women are guilty of this equally in my opinion.

3. It's hard to meet anyone in general...bars seem to be the place everyone hangs out in unless they are very "activity oriented". I agree a bar usually isn't the best place to meet someone but that's where eveyrone goes!

4. General lack of effort in a date is a completely personal opinion. Effort to me means someone who just genuinely wants to be with me and have the best time possible.

Guys,

If you are on a first date that is not going well, do you still offer to pay?

Chivalry isn't dead, it's just sleeping.

- Seats & pregnant Women
I'm guilty as the next man of waiting a few seconds to see if someone else will offer up a seat.
On the bus I always sit as far back as I can -- it winds me up when young healthy people sit in the disabled seats & some poor old dear has to shuffle back 3 rows (invariably laden down with shopping) to find one. Grr. Gnash. etc.

- Holding doors
Never had a complaint about this one. I hold door for anybody who's walking behind me. The only thing that gets to me is if they don't say 'thank you' (civility costs nothing). "No no -- don't thank me -- I was born to hold open doors for c***s like you..."

- Picking up women.
This is hard enough in a meat market, let alone somewhere where ((diety of choice) forbid) you can actually hear yourself think ;-)

- Lack of effort on dates.
Yeah. Really pisses me off that all the responsibility is on the man to put the effort in.

elmermaid said on 8/15/2001 11:07 PM

>things i've noticed...
>-men don't give up seats for pregnant women anymore, nor the elderly
>-holding doors is no longer standard practice
>-overall unwillingness to pick up women in the romantic way ie--in a classy place...general tendency to do meat market bar thing?
>-general lack of effort put into dates....
>discuss

Go Dutch EVERY time. Irrespective. Otherwise it's a form of prostitution.

The only difference between having dinner w/ a friend & having dinner w/ a date is I tend to use rude words less.

Ahh. Born romantic me ;oP

If I ask a woman out on a date then I pay if it goes well or not. The whole point of a date is to get to know someone and you have no idea how it will turn out. Then again, I have had women take me out in the past and had no problem with letting them pay. Nothing wrong with a woman taking the initiative. If a woman is under the assumption that you are paying and you then want to go dutch just because things aren't going well, it could be a bit crass.

Sometimes you have to be careful though as a woman will not always want you to pay. Some women feel uncomfortable with someone else paying as there is the feeling of owing something to the person who paid. Unfortunatly, a lot of this comes from the fact that there are many guys who think that if they buy a women dinner then she does owe him something (none of the guys on this board of course :). That's just a bad way of thinking and causes trouble. If your out with someone, just enjoy the company and don't expect anything at all.

-Mike

josh said on 8/16/2001 1:06 PM

>Guys,
>
>If you are on a first date that is not going well, do you still offer to pay?
>
>

I agree with Mike--I think whoever asks for the first date should pay, regardless of how it ends up (unless of course, the person is mean or insulting, in which case he/she can foot their own half of the bill!).

That being said, I must admit that after the first date, if things are going well, I generally like the 60/40 rule, which is that I pay for stuff like movie tix and a round of drinks, and I let my date pay for dinner. I guess I assume that most of the men I meet make more money than I do (with obvious exceptions being the struggling artist/actor/unemployed dot-commer)and if they don't offer to pay for anything or always insist on going dutch, then I'm going to think they're cheap. And I have to say that I've found that people who are miserly with money are also miserly with affection.

Sorry Josh--I guess I went off on a tangent there. :-)

I'm not aware that it's an option.

Although i don't consider myself as living under a rock I have *NEVER* had a first (and very often second third or fourth) date where the woman does not expect me to pay 100%

In fact, I once had a second date where, after I shelled out about $90 on dinner, we went to a bar. When the *second* round arrived I paused for several seconds to see if she'd pony up. Well, that act earned me the name "Even-Steven" (and a bad attitude from my lovely date) for the rest of that short-lived evening.

I've learned to just accept it at this point. But another thing I learned is that if she STILL doesn't offer a meaningful contribution by date 4, it's time to punt. She's either just too selfish for serious consideration or she's shamelessly marking time until someone better comes along. This is one thing I wish I learned earlier.

Maybe this helps explain my apparent cynicism. Unfairness is just a fact of life and will likely never go away. But for me generosity begets generosity. When someone does something nice for me, I cannot help but wish to return the favor.

But what do I know? If I had the answers I'd be hitched already with zero curiousity in this thread. ; )

Perhaps I'm unusual, but I usually offer to split the bill, and I would not form any conclusions about the guy if he did or didn't offer. What counts is the guy's efforts to make a good impression, not how much money he spends on me. If he has done other things during the evening that are designed to make me feel important, the money is not a big deal. Sometimes it is nice when a guy pays, because it makes me feel like making a good impression on me is important to him, but other things can accomplish the same result. Actually, I must say that it makes me feel comfortable if things generally come out even -- i.e., I pay for one date, he pays for another -- because I don't like to worry that I am causing a guy to spend too much money that he might not be able to afford.

Well all this time on here I finally have someone that I agree with on a subject.
I feel after going out a few times the lady should at least make an attempt or offer to pay something, not saying I would let her but the offer would make ya think anout her more seriously.

now that's the kind of pick up i'm talking about!

It is so funny when I see couple and then the girl (usually the stuck up kind) says she would leave him for me. I usually say "You're too expensive."

I always pay for dinner with no expectations on the first date. If she offers, I kindly accept. Ultimately, the date is about getting to know each other to see where it will lead. Sometimes, disappointment. Sometimes friendship. Sometimes more.

"And I have to say that I've found that people who are miserly with money are also miserly with affection."

Exactly.

Whoever did the asking out should definitely pay 100% for the first date. After that I think the woman should at least offer. I always did before I got hitched. Fortunately I am a cheap date (pasta kind of girl and not much drinking) so men were usually more than happy to pay - which I never mind.

As for the opening the door. It's a nice thing to do. Although, I think it is a nice thing for anyone to do. I always hold the door open for the person behind me regardless of gender.

As for giving up seats. It happens to me all the time and I am not pregnant nor elderly. It is very sweet but sometimes it makes me feel awkward.

I think most men are not so bad. Then again, I am out of the singles scene so my impression is probably skewed.

it's not even paying, it's both parties making a concerted effort to do something fun.

I am not ashamed to admit it.

I would stand up for a pregnant women and my mom raised me to hold doors for women especially her.

As for meeting women in classy places.

Its not about meeting women in classy places. Just be classy and the rest will fall into place.

I want to impress upon a women who I am and not what I do and how much I make because that is old.

i don't think paying should determine if you think of someone 'seriously' or not. what does seriously mean?> what if she doesn't have a lot of money? does buying a woman dinner mean she is now your booty for the the night vs. if she doesn't pay, she is a potential partner??

Right, here goes...
Forgive me but I assumed we were talking about holding a door open so someone could go through it before you, (not holding it for someone after you).
The old-school British rule is, always hold a door for anyone behind you. But, if the person is your superior, or you wish to create such an illusion for the sake of flattery, then one holds the door for that person(male or female), to go through ahead of you. (If they are Japanese one says "Dozo Osakini" and they should reply "Domo"). If there is a double door, one should go throughthe first, open the second, and hold both for the flattered. If the door is revolving, one should hold the door to prevent a dangerous rotation whilst the flattered enters, then help overcome the inertia of the swing to make their push less taxing.
.
Always say thankyou to a door helper, in the same way one should always gesture a thankyou to a motorist that allows you to ross infront of them at a junction, or zebra-crossing.
.
As for Who pays the bill, well I was brought up old school but very quickly realised that society has moved on from there so I've had to adjust.
.
The general rule is that the person that invites should pay the bill. If however the invitation is more of a mutual agreement than an invitation, then Dutch is the accepted method. Dutch would still suggest a chivalrous imbalance in favour of the lady. For example I pay for the meal and tip, and the lady pays for the drinks, (This is just an illustration of proportion, not a rule of deliniation).
.
As for buying drinks at a subsequent venue, then the lady should pay for her fair share of rounds after the first.
This is because a subsequent venue is invariably a mutual agreement, and not an invitation.
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As for equality precluding chivalry, this is generally true. But there is no excuse for inconsiderate behaviour.
.
I beleive that a relationship is a partnership with both partners contributing their fair share of emotion, commitment, resources and energy. (As an aside I disagree that the one with the higher salary should pay more, until such time as the couple decide they are a partnership, in which case, (why not get married and) all assets are fungible and rank parri passu). If a girl believes that a man should pay each time, then she is not considering him. If a man beleives she owes him anything for his generosity, he is a chauvanist. But such people are suited to each other.
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So wotsayu to that diatribe my fancy fornicators?

pay for self on dates

Fancy pickup place? I met [13 years ago] my husband [of 8 years] in the mess hall in the air force, first date was going to be in the canteen...

Whoever goes first opens door for whoevers next

Really, whatever makes parties involved happy - both enjoy and agree to a set of rules, fine then, problems arise with different views of same behavior

I think it is more valuable to give up the small symbolic gestures of consideration [e.g., holding chair, opening door, walking on outside, wearing a collar - ok, enough examples] and instead looking at greater social differences [e.g., still some gender-based payscale differences]

Thanks you Daphna!!! The voice of reason is finally heard!!!

I grow up somewhere in Europe where men took care of their women. This may sound old fashion and contrary to what American women are trying to get by their fights for equal rights and all those feministic ideas. Stop complaining if that is what you wanted. Well you don't have much choice. Let see most of you don't know how to cook, take care of the house and I will not menssion ironing, cleaning etc.