The Reiki Cafe 

Thanks for the clarification of what you've done. But you're still ignoring the point that evidence shows this thing about "no harm" is dogma that isn't grounded in fact.

Bruce

gavstar said on

>How ridculous ...you have no concept of what any of us are talking about in here Brucey

"Brucey?"

....my statement has nothing to do with that.......we are never completetly removed from it as the channels are we????we still have to make a conscious decison on whether we are dong the right thin in our own minds...its called being human and making a decison using the knowledge and expericenes that we have had over your lives

THAT'S MY POINT!!!!!!! Mal's statement said in relevant part, "We are giving ourselves too much credit and not giving enough credit to the universal intelligence to do its thing. The best thing to do is to remove ourselves from the process and just be channels: this is what reiki asked us to do." To which you replied, "Absolutely spot on...huge cheer from the crowd goes up!" But we CAN'T be removed from the process, as you noted in your more recent message.

Bruce

Ok without the higher self being involved, it then comes down to thinking that I know best. If I make the descicion to send am I removing myself from that desicision or am I acting on a personal opinion. Is my personal opinion as to if someone requires healing not based on my Ego telling me that they do need healing. If my ego enters the equation, does personal want and therefore personal energy also enter into it.
Now if that person in my opinion does need healing, but they don't think they do. Whos opinion shold be respected?
Ok if I come from ego, I will say mine is the only opinion, the person who is recieving has no say in it.

The cop out is that if they don't want it then they can reject it. It dosn't always happen mate, trust me.

Ok another example. You are working on a project at work. You know exactly what needs to be done and you are working towards getting that project finished. The project is one that is important to you.
Now if someone, without your knowledge come along and changes everything, because they think they know best thus throwing all of your plans out of the window and causing you a lot more work to get your project back on track, then what would your feeling be about the person who did that?

Now look at your life as that project.

the way it is generally taught to send Reiki is to get to permission. It is said that if you can't ask directly, that you ask your higher self to ask their higher self if they want it. That way you are meant to take self out of the descision, that is why I used the higher self example.
Namaste

Rob
Truth is not a property of language because language has not been able to express abstract ideas as efficiently as concrete items

Hi, Wendy,

wamps said on

>Bruce,
>if you 'will' keep on like a little 'terrier!

"Little?" I don't think so. "Terrier?" I had responded to ahavah's message, you responded to mine, and I answered.

in my experience in my years of sending Reiki w/o permission, I 'have never caused harm'.... how do I know this because I contact that said person the next few days & ask HOW they are...

Now, was that so hard to articulate? It's an explanation of some factual basis underlying your assertions. But others have had different experiences, like someone I described who was exhausted because someone kept sending her reiki periodically each night. Surely, you're not saying your experience is the only one that really happened.

W.B Joy, is not God!!!

Guess what? Neither are you. Yet you seem to be offended that I'm not taking your assertions as a given.

BTW, I'm still puzzled about why you ask for permission in the first place, if you're going to send reiki even if your offer is refused. Could you explain about that?

Bruce

I only disagree with you on one point.....No reiki person I ahve yet met face to face is totally sold on the permission thing .....3 RM's I learn from all teach its OK to send withouot permisission....AND the biggest one none of the old master srealy had aview on it did they

I get your examples I get your point but still we dont have a finite answer where it is as simple as 2+2 = 4....it aint ever gonna happen dude!

Cometh forth the terrier again....why cant this just end with an agreement to disagree!

and neither is sending with permission. Bruce, all I ask for is someone to show me that it is proven........

I hear you..........I agree completely and I wont GO THERE,,after seeing the level of fabulous knicker twisting and even a few comments on Sphinctorial control on this forum that might be just a can of worms too big...I can see a few of the "olds" on this forum imploding with stress!!!

GAV

gavstar,

Sorry, should have realized that you were using the rhetorical 'we'. That does clear up my confussion.

:-)

Walk in beauty,
Rebecca

gavstar,

A little background first. FK used to do distance work based on the Ketsueki Kokan practice of Reiki. (he may still I haven't kept current on this)

About 4 years ago my husband had a heart attack. Sometime later, about 6 months, I asked FK on his behalf to include him in his KK session.

Even though he knew that FK was doing the work when the energy came he was a bit overwhelmed by it and didn't realize what was happening. He thought he was having another heart attack and immediately reached for his nitro pills. We were having dinner at the time and I immediately noticed he was in distress. I calmly told him that it was Peter sending and he relaxed.

Now, my husband expected the energy but he had no experience with either Peter or with distance work. If I had not been there any number of unpleasant things could have happened including an anxiety induced heart attack.

Yes, I am forceful in my views because I have experience to back those views up.

Walk in beauty,
Rebecca

gavster,

I don't see much irrationality here or people loosing their perspective. It seems that those who are trying to get the point of permission across have been very respectful and patient on the whole.

If all you are interested in is stirring the pot to see if s**t will rise well then that isn't very Reiki either is it.

ciao,

Walk in beauty,
Rebecca

Hi, Rebecca,

I think in this instance gavstar was responding to my description of someone who was being kept awake by reiki and asked that the sender cease and desist, but the sender persisted. I don't think he was criticizing your action, at least in this particular sub-thread.

Bruce

Hello again, gavstar,

A brief recap here.

I mentioned someone who had been exhausted over a period of time because someone was periodically sending reiki throughout each night, keeping her awake.

You responded with the statement, "I dont send reiki to anyone who I have not contacted to let them know but all I am saying is that if there was a time I wanted to I would not feel bound by a rule forbidding it...there is no such rule"

I said "you're still ignoring the point that evidence shows this thing about "no harm" is dogma that isn't grounded in fact."

You responded, "and neither is sending with permission. Bruce, all I ask for is someone to show me that it is proven"

Now, there are 2 points here. The first has to do w/ adverse effects, like the one described above. If you send energy without informing the other person at all, then he/she likely won't know whom to tell to stop, and may not even know that what he/she is experiencing is brought on by reiki. If you send _with_ permission, then of course these difficulties don't occur. (There might still be a problem if the sender refuses to stop, but you've agreed that shouldn't happen.)

The second point has to do w/ respecting the other person's capacity to choose. You've said you wouldn't send reiki to someone if that person said "no." At least that shows some respect for the would-be recipient's choice. But if you send without informing the other person, then he/she doesn't even have a chance to say no. Why would you send reiki without giving the recipient a chance to decline? (That's related to my query in the "absolute permission" thread -- under what circumstances would you send reiki without permission?)

Bruce

bruce,

I didn't feel critisized and hope that my response didn't give the impression that I did.

I have deleted it however since it was not in the context of the sub thread.

Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

Walk in beauty,
Rebecca

Hi Conflagration,

Thanks but I'm putting the soap box away for a while since sadly the discussion seems to have turned into a barbecue :))

I agree....it doesn't make sense to me either and nothing I have heard here has changed my mind on the issue of asking for permission first. Indeed, I would like to say that for me personally, hearing the experiences based on fact from Rebeccca, Bruce, FK and others has totally convinced me to stay on my chosen pathway of asking and always respecting the answer :)

At the end of the day each person must be responsible for their own actions, whatever pathway they choose to follow :)

Gentle Blessings
Helen

Bless you

To me it's about responsibility. I do not believe it is okay to not gain permission. That means I do not condone it in another individual. What they do is their business. But by just letting it go and not addressing the issue and speaking on the issue we are in essence saying it is okay for you to do so. you have to decide what you believe for yourself. That does not mean the rest of us have to be okay with it.

In my view ( please note i said my view) it can indeed be harmful to someone./ So by not saying that I feel you are doing wrong is the same as saying it's okay to bring about harmful situations.

If you see a child playing with a gun you take the gun. When you see someone drive like a maniac and endanger others you make a report( not always possible but still the right thing to do ).

It's about standing up for what i feel is right. you don't have to agree but that doesn't mean I shouldn't stand up for it. Again, what you do is your decision. But i will tell you this, if ever someone came to me and asked how i felt about a particular practitioner. And this person sent unpermissioned I would clearly say it is my view that they are being unehtical whether they agree or not, and i would not go to them for treatments or learn from them as they will only perpetuate this unethical behavior.If they did things I liked I would say what it is about them i liked and be fair to give both the negative and positives of the individual.

Excuse me for not taking the time to read the entirety. I do understand the point you are trying to make.

But as you said they do not come from fallin gout of the sky. They are often formed from those in intense meditation or those recieving messages from Spirit directly. Sure some may be logical ponderings but at the same time the divine does exist and can be learned from.

So no particular religion may have it correct. But that doesn't mean it is all wrong either. Also when one enters being we can clearly experience how it is impossible to verbally communicate absolute universal truth.

I mean no disrespect when i say this. As I also at one point fell into this category.

The reason people respond that way is because they don't have the experience. All they have to go on at this point is what someone else taught them. That is what they know.

Until one sees evidence to the contrary they cling to that belief.

I try my best to keep an open mind but have still experienced what i have experienced. So I am firm on somepoints while admittedly others i am much more lax on though i have ideas ( most of the time) i may believe one way then through discussion and experience see how that doesn't really click with the whole.

I actually preferr to be wrong because then i gain something new. And more often than not if someone stumps me i say that they stumped me and will try to get back to them when i have found an answer.

No the point you are missing is that noone saaid Reiki is a religion. But it is spiritual and as such has similarities.

The point is to not force your beliefs on someone. the example illustrates how the majority feels when another's beliefs are thrown upon them.

What the belief is doesn't matter. Whether it is religious/spiritual or is a belief about how caucasions are all evil. It doesn't matter what that belief is By forcing it on another you are not letting them follow THEIR beliefs.

You believe in reiki. Others do not. This is fact. It is not fact that Reiki si real and we are not convincing ourselves otherwise and hence having experiences stemming from delusion. This too is a possibility. The point is not everyone wants Reiki not everyone cares or even knows what it is or cares to find out. Even if they do think it is real their view may be that it is horrid or against their other beliefs. That is their right and should be respected.

I just wouldnt bother if someone said no Brice so we agree..time to ave a party I think!!!

Mines a large one !

Arghhh it is not harmful to anyone.....Purrrlease show me some form of newspaper article where some one ahs got mullered by reiki it doesnt EXIST!!!!!

Again,
if you send without informing the other person, then he/she doesn't even have a chance to say no. Why would you send reiki without giving the recipient a chance to decline? (That's related to my query in the "absolute permission" thread -- under what circumstances would you send reiki without permission?)

Bruce

Shhhhh I have agreed with you ...back to your box!

Did you somehow miss the memo about respect? How sad.

Bruce

gavstar said on

>Shhhhh I have agreed with you ...back to your box!