The Reiki Cafe 

Morning,
I have never been able to abstain from meat or dairy products. I grew up in a meat loving family & unfortunately enjoy the taste of it way too much. How did you, who were meat eaters at one time, convert to vegetarianism?..what I mean is, what worked for you, especially those who did this later in life? I have many decades of habits to undo... Is there one particular guidebook and/or cookbook that you recommend? Since Im surrounded by meat eaters this approach will not win any popularity contests so I need simple & practical suggestions. ( please dont tell me to just stop eating meat..that hasnt worked so far..Ive seen the PETA website, read the horror stories...like smokers who see a picture of a black lung from tobacco smoke,Im able to compartmentalize what the animals go through to become my supper, it just goes away when Im shopping, cooking or eating. Perhaps that is part of the meat eaters unconscious credo: thy shall not think about those things!). Any suggestions that you used yourself or worked for someone close to you would be appreciated.

peace & joy,
holobon

holobon,

/*\ Namaste :-}}

- for some it seems to be realizing\accepting and\or acting upon the fact that animals we eat are sentients and that this is not in the best interest of one's Karma

- the dairy thing is a bit more of a stretch, to me, at any rate - a cow is not harmed if milked - nor is the cow harmed if butter or cheese is processed from the milk

- though perhaps there are vegans who feel that domesticating cattle in the first place was not Karmically "wise"

- perhaps some vegans have dairy allergies??

- ther eis also the matter of all the non-animal products now available for consumption thanks to "science" - which, btw, has experimented on animals for many centuries (not Karmically wise, either) - so even soy products may be manufactured by some of the ssame people who "abuse" our animal, sentient companions on earth

>:-}}

- and, what about clothes and shoes, etc?? Do vegans wear only synthetics (not that they are so widely available)?? Or is leather\animal hides OK??

- are we all connected, or what

bagl

Reiki All Around,

All Blessings,

Firekeeper

I have never been vegan myself. Nor do I care to. Vegetarian I have been and really would say mostly am now. Last october it just popped into my head that i should give it a shot. I didn't set out to be a vegetarian for life. But to see how that type of diet affected me.

Now i eat meat. But nowhere near as much as I used too. I do alot of my meals at work because it's free and got tired of the slim vegetarian offerings. I needed variety and the only variety available was meat.

I would say, do it because you want to. Not because you think you should. Humans are omnivorous. I think there is no harm in eating meat. Some belief systems tell of the benefits of being vegetarian ( or more correctly mostly vegetarian). So it's up to you to decide for yourself if you believe in this or not.

Hi holobon

At this stage in my life I will say it would be almost impossible for me to turn vegan, I fully respect a vegans veiwpoint, but take this veiwpoint a stage further.

Birds eat spiders, spiders eat flys, magotts eat dead flesh and so on.

The ecological and evolutionary process that has been set out for us since the formation of this wonderfull planet we call earth, is all part and parcell for the maintenance of all the creatures that live here on earth, of which we are only a small part.
I know that we think we control it but we don't we are looked over on a daily basis by nature itself to me a vegans veiwpoint is a very personal feeling but I think we have far greater points of proceedure to attend to without considering that should we eat meat or not, but then again its only a veiwpoint.

Angels are always with you

neil

Otoharo!

I spent thirty minutes writing my reply just to have my computer fail! So I rewirte.

When I was in Inner Peace Movement, we practiced asking permission of plants and animals for using them for food. We had a running joke about the billboard that showed a bacon and eggs breakfast! The chickens bragged about being portrayed up there on that billboard, showing their contribution to humans. A pig came by and said, you don't know what you are talking about. You only made a contribution, for me it is total committment.

WE served a calf at each retreat that we either had grown or we bought. We petted this calf for a month ahead of time, massaging and loving him. He knew we were planning to eat him and was willing to make this sacrifice.

Years later when I began working with Xaris, it was recommended that we cease the eating of anything that had a face like ours. That meant mammals. So we ate chicken and fish for years. Then there came the time when it was recommended that we eat no meat at all. And at the same time, dairy was to be our main stay. However, milk is not fit as humans can not digest milk. But when made into yogurt it is fully digestable. So I buy milk of organically grown cows, make it into yogurt and eat about a pint or so daily. All dairy from fermented milk is good. Kifir I buy made from goat milk. Goat milk is much easier to digest than cows milk. (When I was a child, we had clabber on the farm and churned buttermilk which had fermented into clabber. We made cottage cheese from clabber. These are excellent.) Now I make cheese from the yogurt I make. These are my mainstays with also large amounts of almonds. Almonds are very high in protein. With all these foods to eat every day, one can not get very hungry for anything else.

I do not have difficulty eating eggs and eat two daily. these I buy from organically grown and fed hens. They also need to have been cage free so they scratched for worms and bugs.

I began eating almonds about forty years ago. I carried them around with me, in the car, in my purse or pocket so that i could nibble. I found that if I had something to nibble on, I could manage to control what i ate. As a result I lost extra weight and have maintained a healthful weight.

How did I do all this? I tend to dally around. As long as I was dallying, I had no control. Once there was a REASON, I chose whatever and stuck to it. For instance, when I was writing my thesis in my younger days, I began smoking just to have something in my mouth and on my tongue. (I kid around that air people's tongue flaps in the wind when we are being creative, so we need to keep something in our mouths.) This became a habit and it took six years to break this habit. In fact, I could not break it until the day that I realized smoke was going into my lungs! I quit that day! I have never smoked one since then. that is what I mean by dallying around.

Reason. That is the key for me. I can not just do something. I do something for a reason. The reason I take the recommendations from Xaris is that I trust her, first of all, and her purpose is to help us to move into fourth dimension. Our bodies will be less dense. The foods we eat contribute to our density. If we are to shine like a light we can't be eating foods that are dense.

I doubt that I would be able to do any of the things I describe were it not for this reason. The reason to not do a thing outweighs the reason for doing it.

I have lived alone since about 1974. So, all the times I have made the above choices I did not have to deal with another person. I stopped eating out when I began feeling the denseness of people around me. Also, I do not see commmercials. No one has a way of tempting me.

finality

If you want to cut down on meat do just that. Start eating less. Theres no need to go cold turkey :P

Another way is to start cutting out say red meat from your diet, and just have seafood/fish or such. And then move progressively on from there.

You can also learn how to cook amazing vegetarian meals. If you know how to fully satisfy your pallate that way there may be less desire to buy as much meat. The cooking with Korma books are pretty good. But check out your local bookstore.. theres sure to be all sorts of vege cookbooks.

Sounds like a more compassionate choice of diet your moving to so congratulations. Make sure you eat a balanced diet so educate yourself about staying healthy and vegetarian. You can also treat it like an experiment. See how it affects your health. Adjust your diet as you see fit to cater for your optimal health. Be aware of what your eating. And if need be have a piece of meat now and again to supplement that. It really isn't necessary to have meat with every single meal. Good luck on your choice.

Make changes slowly. One step at a time. Decide what the first priority is. Is it about having a healthier diet or about not eating animal friends? Decide one thing that approaches your goal for being vegan or vegetarian. Also, before you "give something up", get used to at least one new thing, so you have a repertoire. And listen to how your body feels when you make the change......some people don't do well on a vegetarian diet long term. If you eat meat, do so with gratitude and reverence and awareness. Health wise, Bernard Jensen got very good results with his formula of 6 vegetables, 3 fruits, one protein and one "starch" per day (this is a recommended diet for ADULTS ). Also, with the vegetables and fruits, at least half should be raw. Keep in mind that non organically raised meat often contains harmful hormones, as does non organic dairy. Cow milk, (not yogurt or kefir) is hard to digest and generally is not good for us. Goat milk and goat milk products are better, as I think Finality expressed. Vegetarians need to be aware of getting B12.....it is in egg yolks . If you take a supplement, sublingual is better than a capsule. Hope some of this helps.
Love,
Feather

See I dunno I think spiritually speaking we place more of a no no on domestication than may be fact. What of farmers who treat their animals well ( well for farm animals anyways)? Are not such livestock more protected than the rest of the animal kingdom really? Is the lion earning bad karma for eating the baby antelope while it's still alive?
Or is it just more of a gruesome side of reality?

I have heard there is a protein that helps the body create testosterone which is only found in red meat ( might be all meat but definitely red meat).

And what of plants? We have seen in research on plants that they respond to fire and music. Growing away from fire and loud angry music while seeming to grow closer to softer more peaceful music. There are studied changes bio-chemically in the plant as well. So in a way yes plants are aware of such things. But we never seem to say " ohhh poor plant." Or the fact that if everyone was eating veggies we'd still be "raping" the planet. It would just be plant life not animal matter.You really can't save the planet by changing from one form of food to another.

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying poor conditions for our livestock is okay.

Also i'm sure the population of " industialized" nations would be significantly smaller if everyone had to go get their own food.

But if all life is said to be equal than eating plant life would be just as bad as eating meat. So then should we all starve ourselves or only eat what falls off the plant as opposed to picking to ensure freshness? It's not as if a particular plant cannot be extinct.

After reading all your thoughtful and in depth replies....perhaps cutting back would be a good start & then go from there. I gave up veal years ago after discovering how milk fed veal are raised. Recently Ive had to face the fact that many animals raised on commercial large scale farms are subjected to horrific deaths. Maybe focusing on that will help me to eliminate more.
The world is filled with predator and prey & the cycle of life & death plays out as it was designed or as it has evolved. If humans have the greatest intelligence, the most compassion of the earth species ( that is debatable perhaps) that there must be a better way. When I purchase or consume meat Im indirectly encouraging the abuses in the slaughterhouses. Thats the issue for me. I look at my dog & realize in another country she might not fare so well. Why is the cow, pig & chicken different? And yet, harvesting large scale crops involves destruction of animal life: mice, voles, rabbits and their dens.
Your responses have shown me that thinking it through some more is a good idea.

peace & joy,
holobon

Hi Holobon,
I am a 'vegetarian' not vegan...but don't eat meat of any kind...I found after doing Reiki when I became aware of my 'inner voice' I listened more to my body, & what that was telling me also...
apart from the fact that I am very much in love with everything in nature, not just insects,also all creatures that walk, run or fly!!!..my 'body' rejected all meats.

I started by 'just not adding' meat to MY plate, as at that time my husband still ate meat, then he also wanted away from meat, so I just loaded up the plates with heaps of veg,
we were never hungry..got a bit boring, then we found they do a lot of 'soy' products very tasty, like bacon thats not bacon, (that's what its called) but you would not know the difference, & soy burgers with heaps of fried onion,(make your own beef that ain't beef) burgers, in a huge bun filled with salad, the list goes on...they even do a soy mince & when a spag: sauce is mixed in with it, well the recipe that need beef mince etc..(just use this) yum !!!

I do have the soy milk, but eat fresh eggs (with no rooster present) so they are not fertile, & eat all types of cheese,
so, so I am doing my bit to wards saving a few poor animals
from a 'horrific existence' & slaughter..
bon apatite,..luv wendy

oh Holobon,
you remind me of when I started to think of giving up the smokes!!! I could think of 50 ways to why I 'should' quit,...& then 50 ways as why I 'needn't', LOL..

by the way the 'should's won', & I am smoke free now, do I feel any better, hell no !!! but have more $$$$'s in my purse for 'lettuce' LOL :-}}}}}.

back in time, yes, man had to hunt & 'kill' for his family & himself,..but even he didn't have meat EVERYDAY, (cus he couldn't always catch it or find it!!)he was like the animals..even the lion only kills once a week,there are not many animals that DO kill to eat every day....

PS. this is a thought to hold onto..if YOU can kill it THEN YOU CAN EAT IT!!!! ...LUV WENDY xx

Dear Conflag,
Good points to consider.
What about the rocks, the soil teeming with life and the grass that is mowed, forced to comply to arbitrary height requirements.. Ouch!!
Until we come up with an alternative to eating food I dont see how one can get past consuming other species, plant or animal. I understand your point however, there is no way to feed the masses without ending the life of other species. Have read that it takes less resources to grow vegetables & grains for food than it does farm animals & that is something worse consideration.
It appears that all life forms can not be preserved. Preservation ultimately means that something will die in order that another live. It is the way of nature on earth.
But humans have the ability to think beyond instinct, communicate & purposefully manipulate their environment to an extent that no other known species does. We have the knowledge and ability to take food humanely, the issue is that we dont. We dont even take the time to consider how it got to our plates. We are so removed from the process that it no longer moves us. As long as it is hidden away from us we go about our business as usual.
The belief that all life is equal is one Im not sure I can grasp because it suggests that I am equal to a cockroach & in all honesty I dont subscribe to that notion. The beetles may be screaming HUBRIS!! but Im just not convinced. If I follow that line of thinking then a virus has as much right to live as I do.....
I dont know what the answer is...but consumer opinion drives the commercial market. We can change once we agree that there is a need to change. Perhaps that is where I am, I see a need to change.
Some days I wonder if a more evolved or more aggressive species will appear one day & I will be looking over my shoulder trying to avoid being the prey. Perhaps then I will consider the cockroach my compatriot.

peace & joy,
holobon

Dear Wamps,
Ive decided that I will have to consistently remind myself of how animals are slaughtered in order to be sucessfull at this & doing it a step at a time probably is more realistic. Im ashamed to admit that after a few hours of compassion Im tempted by a burger. Im weak when it comes to food & this will likely be a long journey. Habits are hard to break especially when most everyone I know is a meat eater. Posting has helped. Maybe a meat eaters anonymous might be a good idea. :)

peace & joy,
holobon

Dave,

/*\ Namaste :-}}

- the issue is people taking up vegan habits and, secondarily I suppose, cruelty to animals

- animals are not cruel (to say so is the epitome of anthropomorphising)

- Karma in the animal realm is likely somewhat 'different' than in the 'human realm'

- pretty much everything 'reacts' to fire if exposed directly

- music? I would say all living things will respond to music in some fashion - whether the effects are measureable by us is another matter (as if it is really any of our business)

>:-}}

Reiki All Around,

All Blessings,

Firekeeper

by responding to fire i did not mean in the sense of setting it on fire if that's what you were saying. It's been over a decade since i heard about the research ( think i was around 17 or so ). And don't quote me on this but i believe it was in a Popular Science article.

Also it has been said that the only animal to kill for pleasure other than humans is the wolverine. BUT that means there is an animal other than humans. So would it then be cruel if we do it but not cool if the wolverine does it?

Holobon, what's wrong with cockroaches? Sure noone likes to see them in their home. But i think they are kinda cute in their own lil way.: )~ Besides it is said that if there was an all out nuclear war they'd be the survivors. That's pretty admirable to me. Then there's the spiritual angle of all things being one, so then we are the cockroach and it is us.

Now , of course, I'm not saying I'm right on any of this just bringing up another perspective as it is something I have thought about myself in the past year.

Dave,

/*\ Namaste :-}}

- it was, of course, a human who said wolverines kill for pleasure

- clearly a projection

>:-}}

- someone needs to ask the wolverines, I would say

bagl

Reiki All Around,

All Blessings,

Firekeeper

Dear Conflag,
When you live in Florida you deal with tons of roaches which will get into every nook & cranny & crawl over you if you let them. They are carriers of germs & I happen to have tested out allergic to them. I can deal with them outside but in my home is another matter. Talking to them does no good, Im not a cockroach whisperer. I dont pretend to be enlightened though Im more respectfull than I used to be. I just found a dead one in the rack I keep my knives & Im wondering how often I used a knife after it crawled all over it. If its them or me, it will be them. If they had more respect for me, Id have more respect for them. The buggers are a cheeky lot!! Im not exactly proud of that attitude but to say anything else is to lie. But even with cockroaches I can not stomach seeing one suffer & do not enjoy killing them, only in being free of their presence in my house. :)
Im not sure I buy into all things being one....more like all things are connected, what I do to the cockroach eventually impacts all down the line, in ways I can not fathom.
Looking at these issues over the last few years has taught me that my compassion is very limited. Perhaps that is a start.....

peace & joy,
holobon

LOL true dat

Dear Conflag,
I used to believe that only humans killed for sport. But there are many reports of animals being killed by predators and not eaten. For example in Fl, panthers have attacked goats & sheep & killed many without eating any. What fuels that? Instinct to go after prey even when not hungry? Dog packs in the US are known to kill and not eat.

peace & joy,
holobon

I've found that talking to them can be successful and not successful LOL. I had one time where it worked and I made them a veggie burger with all the fixins ( well as i'd eat it anyways) and offered them pizza as offerings. And it's worked. Felt that the cockroach spirits agreed again this spring and i prepared them a similar offering ( i think once was pizza and once was the burger) and the second time it didn't work out. Cockroach propably thinks i'm a punk sucka now LOL.

As far as all things being one. I have mixed feelings based on experience. I usually think of it in terms of a machine we each have our role but we're all part of the one big machine. So to not tend to the other parts is detrimental to ourselves. But on the other hand when I had my big Being experience I could feel everything as if it was really me.My energy was it's energy etc. coffe table. TV. Trees. Plants. When I was Being I didn't recognize them as at all seperate. I would see an object or person and it was like looking at myself. There's me sitting on top of me next to the other me. There was just no recognition as anything being not Me.

holobon,

/*\ Namaste :-}}

- territoriality drives many behaviors whether this is for an individual animal or a pack (urban gangs sometimes strike me as acting like 'pack animals' - dominance hierarchy being a major driving force in their interactions among themselves and with other "species")

- also, some diseased predators behave in ways not typical - a rabid or otherwise 'demented' cougar may appear to kill for no reason (but cougars, even healthy ones are, of course, relatively low on the "reason scale")

>:-}}

Reiki All Around,

All Blessings,

Firekeeper

holobon,

If they get to be a real problem, you could always call the M.I.B - Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones do a pretty neat line in cockroach clearance.

We don't get them much up here in the frozen North.

rofl.

Oiche mhaith agus beannacht leat.

Brian

Dear Celticcapricorn,
HaHaHa...know whatcha mean...grew up in NY & never saw a roach till I came to Florida. The first time I saw one fly across the living room I was mortified & horrified. The piece de resistance was the night I heard a low level munching sound & finally tracked it down..a roach was eating a collage on the wall ( Im dating myself but at the time pictures made with dry beans and natural ingredients were all the rage). The dang thing was eating it, varnish and all. Needless to say the artwork landed in the garbage.
Im ready for the Men in Black!! :)

peace & joy,
holobon

Otoharo!

Holobon, I lived in Florida when my children were young. Someone said they simply walk in the door. Some of them were called Palmetto bugs as they lived in them. I had a friend whose husband was something or other for the government in their effort to control insects of all kinds. He would not allow his wife to do anything about these roaches. When we met in her house, especially the kitchen bugs were crawling all over everything! These both had doctoral degrees. I am remembering more as I write about this. He was the one who thought up the idea of controlling mosquitoes with black boxes that somehow made the females infertile. I don't remember the details. He was a brilliant man. And he lived with roaches while he tried to figure out how to make them infertile!

finality

Dear Finality,
Eeeeyuck!! Sounds like a horror movie to me & grounds for divorce! Take thee to a lab to do thy experiments, say I.....
peace & joy,
holobon